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zzz
hi wssh you said I invited you here to talk about MOOR but you'll have to refresh my memory what it is ))
zzz
so there was a twitter thread, there were two projects, datura and another one. MOOR is the other one?
wssh
Yeah.
wssh
Here.
zzz
cool. found the thread, I don't think you mentioned the name
zzz
so then you're @encrypted_past ?
wssh
yes. no opsec needed.
wssh
It's not illegal to write privacy ware.
zzz
ha. ok that was a month ago, not my fault I half forgot ))
wssh
Oh, no problem, I didn't take offense.
dr|z3d
we're already behind the curve, zzz...
dr|z3d
we're missing the ShutStorm transport.
dr|z3d
*** grins. ***
dr|z3d
*ShitStorm
wssh
I saw a few gaps in tor and decided to take a crack at it.
wssh
it's not intended as a competition or replacement for tor, i2p or anything.. only that it's My Own Onion Router.
zzz
sure. congrats on the project, we wish you success
wssh
love what you guys do, too.
wssh
:) i've got a few boxes pushing cloves. just for the love.
zzz
we've been chatting here about the datura spec or whitepaper or whatever it is.
wssh
yeah, i looked into it... seems a majority concept art.
zzz
didn't have pointer to your project so don't have any questions. If you want to pimp it, feel free to tell us more, if not, I'm sure we'll do our own homework at some point
wssh
one thing i tried to do with MOOR is enable HS lookups without giving away what's being looked up.
wssh
anyways, you're all welcome to rip it apart..
wssh
if there's anything you like in it, use it, take it, mod it... break it...
zzz
just my opinion, but I think Tor lost years and years during the move to Rust, there's definitely directions to take it that they haven't
wssh
Rust is garbage impo
wssh
It's too young to be lives on.
wssh
but yeah you guys are welcome to take anything you like from MOOR and use it if you want. i don't give a shit about the code or anything as far as that goes. it is Open.
wssh
and if it's a total piece of shit, that's fine too.
wssh
i'm just having fun, learning along the way.
zzz
thanks, same offer to you
wssh
the PIR thing - DA serves HS descriptors via private information retrieval, so it doesn't learn which onion
wssh
you're asking for. tor HSDirs see the blinded key, i2p netdb sees the leaseset key, MOOR's DA just sees "a row got pulled"
wssh
sorry, notes.
zzz
we're halfway through our PQ transition, nice to see you doing it from the start
wssh
i was actually like "go i2p" when i saw you guys moving through it
wssh
it's not easy... a lot of 12 pm to 7 am sessions.
zzz
yeah part 2 release (TCP transport) was this week. we did end to end the previous release. UDP transport next release
zzz
we've had blinded support for years, but still not widely used, tough to integrate into applications
wssh
and i'm sure there's bugs and vulns in my code. if i pretended it was gods gift to the internet i'd be lying. i have no UDP transports. :P
wssh
i'm also one dude. no team or help or funding or real infra for real testing.
zzz
spread the word, maybe you'll get some
wssh
the other thing i thought was crazy about i2p is that you guys do things in java...
wssh
that's a feat.
wssh
(i suck at java)
wssh
i don't know how to spread the word, man. :P i'm honestly even shocked you invited me here.
zzz
java's not hard and it makes the releases 10x easier (build once, run anywhere, blah blah)
wssh
i'm literally a nobody :P
zzz
so are we, you're welcome here
zzz
I see you also went with MLDSA-65 sigs. We're holding off on the sig side for another year at least
zzz
while we let IETF and the CA/B forum do their thing
wssh
my threat model is closer to tor than i2p - circuit-switched, directory-based. it's a research network, not
wssh
something you'd bet your life on yet. the ideas matter more than the deployment. I decided to use PQClean because it's there, still needs an audit for this application.
wssh
i just liked the idea of building something more than some .md files on an onion.
zzz
sounds like your'e sticking a lot closer to basic tor architecture than what datura is handwaving about
wssh
yeah they've got a lot of text in documents, not a lot of code.
wssh
(no disrepsect) but i think when i read it it sounded like a bunch of younger idealistic kids throwing ideas into a hat.
wssh
which is more or less okay, and they've got decent ideas, but i draw the hard line when adding Monero as a PoW layer to defend against denial of service.
wssh
I live in the US so, it would be a a good way to get my door kicked by some regulatory authority.
zzz
let's say we have questions...
wssh
sure? what are they.
zzz
I mean about datura
wssh
right.. i have nothing to do with them.
wssh
i think ideas sounded good on paper... so did communism.
zzz
yup. the PoW stuff is a headscratcher
wssh
i just use memory hard argon2id
wssh
as a baseline against sybil attacks.
wssh
i don't know if it will help, much.. but it's there.
wssh
idea being if it costs a little, there won't be too much incentive to flood the network with spy nodes.
zzz
I gotta run, but feel free to stick around, get to know the gang around here. let me know if you register your nick and I'll give you perma voice
zzz
maybe you can talk dr|z3d into implementing your ShitStorm plugin, sounds right up his alley
wssh
ok will do boss. appreciate it.
wssh
dr|z3d: you wanna? take it. rofl
wssh
also, one of my favorites is Nether, because nobody blocks Minecraft.
zzz
we're pretty anti-look-like-something-else transports, seems like a losing battle, we just do our own thing and try to look like random
wssh
rofl i figured you guys might be. havin a laugh at me. :P no worries <3
dr|z3d
*** grins some more. ***
dr|z3d
the transport name amused me. but as zzz said, we don't really have a pluggable transport thing going on just yet.
dr|z3d
you may need to /cycle wssh if you just got awarded +V
dr|z3d
also feel free to /join #saltr
wssh
lmao yeah shitstorm is exactly what it sounds like. it's a cover transport that just sprays garbage that pattern-matches whatever the censor's DPI is sniffing for. name was the honest part half the transports are me goofing off to see what sticks. if one of them turns out to not be dogshit i'll be as surprised as you.
dr|z3d
sounds interesting and amusing in equal measure.
dr|z3d
I think we have a stub for pluggable transports somewhere, just hasn't been used yet.
dr|z3d
github.com/I2PPlus/i2pplus/blob/68b7901255e65b72fac949add499168ab7946e55/router/java/src/net/i2p/router/transport/TransportManager.java#L79
wssh
Sorry. Back.
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